Interview with Eva Joly: “They give 100, 120 million to corrupt leaders and by means of which they can continue to plunder the country” 08/22/2019
(Ecofin Hebdo) – Anti-corruption icon, Eva Joly, during her career as an investigating judge at the financial centre of the Palais de Justice in Paris, has uncovered numerous cases, the most prominent of which was the Elf company’s African corruption network. She was also responsible for the indictment of Roland Dumas, then President of the French Constitutional Council, and the Bernard Tapie case against Crédit Lyonnais. Eva Joly has also advised several governments in the fight against corruption and international financial crime. In 2012, she was nominated as a candidate in the French presidential election for the Europe Ecologie Les Verts party.
Last month, she was received in London by the NGO Tax Justice Network, which presented her with an award for her extraordinary contribution to tax justice. Idriss Linge met her on this occasion. Interview.
Ecofin Agency : Your biggest battle against corruption has been in Africa. How did you conduct this investigation?
Eva Joly: It was an investigation that started in a rather modest way from a file of the COB (French SEC, NDLR), at the time, concerning the textile company BIDERMANN. And I discovered quite quickly that there were not normal movements of funds and after a long investigation, I was able to determine that BIDERMANN had received completely abnormal support from ELF. And from there, we went to Africa and I was able to establish that there was a whole system of corruption and undue profits. So Elf’s money was distributed: a little bit went back to Africa but many stayed in France and was used for the leaders’ own needs, for their wives, their children, their mistresses, for their way of life. And it is indeed the largest anti-corruption investigation in the West since the Second World War. And the good thing is that we were able to carry it to the end and people were convicted. 30 people were convicted in this case. But it was the first time we were really updating the network.
AE: What did you learn from this investigation on Africa?
Eva Joly: We have shown how African leaders, corrupted by ELF money, personally, allowed certain french people to enrich themselves at the expense of African countries. That was very interesting. And this aspect of the file was not really addressed, I believe, when there was equipment that could be used scientifically.
AE: You did not only intervene in French-speaking Africa. In Zambia, for example, what did you discover?
Eva Joly: Yes, Zambia, like all mining countries that make a living from the extraction of raw materials, does not receive a fair share of this natural rent, which is really captured by multinationals that use all the “tricks in the book”, in particular they use the sorting of transfers at the expense of countries, whether Mali or Zambia. They use tax havens, such as Mauritius for Zambia, and the profits made do not go to countries where they could be taxed to participate in development.
In fact, the figures we had at the time were that Zambia was only getting $50 million from this industry when the value of exports was in the order of $3 billion, so it was really a small part. In addition, it subsidized the electricity needed by the mining industry, not to mention the use of roads and other facilities… And so, it is absolutely revolting. And Norway’s development assistance project helped the Zambian government to change its contracts with multinationals, and the result was spectacular. Unfortunately, this did not last because the president, who was anti-corruption and who wanted this program (Michael Sata, editor’s note), died and his successor (Edgar Lungu, editor’s note) returned to the old traditions…
AE: How can these heads of state give in to temptation?
Eva Joly: It’s very often because they are paid personally with funds in accounts for Zambia in London. It is very cheap for multinationals. They give 100, 120 million to corrupt leaders and in return they can continue to plunder the country. This is why today we need to create a global, global register of properties that would make it possible to track who owns what, everywhere, for both developing and developed countries. And that would be a huge step forward in the fight against corruption and also against all forms of crime.
AE: After all these years of fighting corruption in Africa, do you see any progress emerging?
Eva Joly: No. Africa’s greatest misfortune is also the lack of quality of its leaders. And it is up to civil society to intervene, it is also up to civil society to work on democracy and to ensure that leaders are more transparent and accountable to the population. And let this curse end. I think there is a great willingness, a great understanding today in the developed countries that we must leave more of our wealth to Africa. We are terribly responsible for the situation in Mali.
Interview by Idriss Linge
Source: Agence Ecofin
Overheard: Best way to receive those millions in bribe is to head to the country of the company that owns your mines in a private jet.That way you can load the cash in the plane….I wish our leaders saw the damage they are doing to Zambia in lost funds by allowing “investors” to plunder us.
For those curious about Eva Joly, please look for this book TREASURE ISLANDS: TAX HAVENS AND THE MEN WHO STOLE THE WORLD by Nicholas Shaxson. It’s on sale at Grey Matter bookshop at Eastpark Moll. It’s in its second edition now. I bought my first copy in 2008. Shaxson writes at length on French corruption with leaders of former French colonies.
I’m sure the name of the Supreme leader who has hidden the privatisation loot in the paradise papers should appear on those who have stashed the loot in the tax havens islands …
As a Zambian take time and think about the following:
1. Just imagine a head of state who is so corrupt and compromised that he encourages his click of thieves to steal where they are working. (ubomba mwibala).
2. The highest officer responsible for collecting tax helps his tribesmen to evade tax?
3. The daughter of a head of state who keeps millions in her home.
4. Vagabonds like Lusambo who now can boast of being able to buy 25,000 bags of mealie meal within a second when they were just known thugs.
5. Where the vice president, head of the judiciary, head of parliament, Lands minister allocate themselves land in a forest reserve that is a recharge zone for the entire province.
Do you think there is hope for such a country?
It’s disgusting what the leadership does to the nation. People are suffering yet they are filthy rich. They should know that they can’t take it with them when they die. My goodness they will pay for their crimes. God will deal with these crooks. Let them enjoy the loot for it is only for a season. They will have to face Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for judgement and it won’t be a good outcome. Repent crooks before it’s too late.
I thought the article was about the Privatisation Thief and Panama money laundering.
…in other words Lungu is even worse than Sata (mhsrip)
The best clue on the identities of the Zambian presidents Eva Joly is talking about in the interview is which president imposed a windfall tax on the mines and died and which president replaced him and reversed that. It’s that simple.
Who corrupts African Leaders if not the worst corrupt western world…Just thinking so to complete the equation it means all are corrupt…
As far as I know, the most corrupt deals and the current mining contracts in place were done by MMD under FTJ and LPM. Vedanta’s Argawal was personal friends with Levy. RB didn’t sign any mining contracts. Sata got back Zamtel while ECL got back KCM. It is under ECL that VAT refunds are about to be abolished.
“… Norway’s development assistance project helped the Zambian government to change its contracts with multinationals, and the result was spectacular…”
WHICH CONTRACT FOR WHICH MULTINATIONAL CHANGED????
“… No. Africa’s greatest misfortune is also the lack of quality of its leaders. And it is up to civil society to intervene, it is also up to civil society to work on democracy and to ensure that leaders are more transparent and accountable to the population…. ”
African leaders are ELECTED by locals from all walks of life, CSOs are answerable to their funders sitting in western capitals with unknown agendas-who’s is more likely to represent the interests of Africans???
Lies…..on top of all his thieving , lungu and PF resigned a 25 year deal with mopane mines just before elections to pay a flat rate for electricity thst does not reflect market prices……
ECL and PF are the M.O.A.C. in other words “Mother Of All Corruption”
The issue here is not ECL but the Zambian people who will vote the D©G back into power, that’s the issue.
Continue insulting we shall see which dog has kept losing since Zambians are dogs
Iwe fwanya F off atase. twale ingulu ukutali mune. No leader in Zambia current or future will ever rob this country again. The vigilante have risen so boi bola naikosa.
The Great Mwene Mutapa made the Panama Papers list without even holding a Government position
Africa and zambia in particular needs to educate alot of people so that we can elect good leaders as long as the number of educated people still at 10% of our population the same so called corrupt leaders will continue ruling and stealing from there home land thats y poverty in zambia is high because we chose leaders based on a song not on the capabilities of a person. zambia is doomed now, only God knows. all the people in government are busy stealing making money not helping the country but enriching themselves
Mr.Nemwine I want to express my happiness with you.I hope you have first version book of TREASURE ISLANDS .This book made me to become a bookworm and is part of me.
I will go to east park mall to search for it.The one I have it’s worn out in hard copy.I have been with it since 1998 as young boy.Although I met several versions of modern language on line but not detailed as the original book.
I give you respect man for investing your time on studying these books.
Forecast: But Nicholas Shaxson’s book TREASURE ISLANDS (with an ‘s’ ) was only published in 2010 (sorry about the 2008 yr I gave). Don’t confuse it with the old English classic TREASURE ISLAND which is wht you are probably talking about here. I can repeat without any doubt that Grey Matter bookshop still has copies of TREASURE ISLANDS. Shaxson is British and was born in Malawi where his father was a soil scientist on govt agricultural aid project. He did part of his early schooling there. I hv two other books by him. TREASURE ISLANDS is really a call to arms to stop tax evasion.
Why do you think lungu has never denied being a corrupt theif ?????
Oh dear, the anti President Lungu squad out in full force.
A bit of fake news added to the article which was not about Zambia but french African states. There is no proof found by this Eva Joly on President Lungu’s part. The nonsense about President Sata being anti coruption and that President Lungu has gone back to old ways is a piece of nasty addition. In fact President Lungu has imposed controversial Mining Taxes to give more to the people. Guess who are behind this article….yes…..NGO Tax Justice Network. These NGO organisations need to understand they are NOT part of the Political process and stop spreading lies to empower their fantasy position in developing countries. They are NON GOVT orgs. They do nothing but cause political unrest.
Don’t even forget, the FIC act was developed under the cabbage’s presidency but he sat on it. It is Lungu who brought it out and effected it. The corruption attacks are a carefully put together plan by the Western funders hell bent on having a proxy president in plot one.
Tax Justice Network is a credible anti-corruption campaigner under the able leadership of a former KPMG partner Robert Murphy. Eva Joly was an investigation magistrate in France and ECL wasn’t in office when she was working. She’s retired now. She’s Norwegian by birth but assumed French citizenship due to marriage.
Sorry, it’s Richard Murphy and NOT Robert Murphy who is at the Tax Justice Network. He’s formerly of KPMG and knows all the tax loopholes.
Corruption is every where. Simple as that, and who suffers? Us, the low income people. Our leaders are blinded by greed.
“Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land, they own and control the corporations that have long since bought and paid for, the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pocket, and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and the information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else. But I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens…
. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them.”
Africa’s greatest misfortune is also the lack of quality of its leaders, especially, in Zambia with PF thieves.
When president mwanawasa died things want back to corrupt practices
From Chiluba’s second term onwards, corruption has reigned supreme.